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Author
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Topic: ATF teaching its agents countermeasures?
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ebvan
Member
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posted 10-27-2008 04:38 PM
  
WTF?
http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/national-112/1225140250110560.xml&storylist=topstories&thispage=1 IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 10-27-2008 05:19 PM
I'm hoping it was a Groganite who did the tests, which means CMs or no CMs, you're going to get through the test if you want to.IP: Logged |
detector
Administrator
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posted 10-27-2008 05:19 PM
It states that the polygraphs were given by a Private Investigator. We have really got to find out who this was.If it was grogan, I guess those ATF agents can be glad he gives fake tests. Sort of makes me wonder though if it wasn't all planned from the get go. it states they knew polygraph tests had been implemented from a prior bust. Almost have to believe the examiner, whoever, he was was in on it. If it was then the 'our agents were trained to beat it' could just be the cover story to protect the examiner. any other scenario is just plain scary for all involved. ------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator Be sure to visit our new store for all things Polygraph Related
http://store.polygraphplace.com IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 10-27-2008 06:13 PM
Ralph if you are right about the cover story idea then ATF in its infinite stupidity has just irresponsibly complicated all future polygraphs for every private examiner and law enforcement agency in the world to protect the identity of either an incompetent, a snitch, or both.If they did in fact teach their agents to use countermeasures; by announcing it, ATF in its infinite stupidity has just irresponsibly complicated all future polygraphs for every private examiner and law enforcement agency in the world to protect the identity of either an incompetent, a snitch, or both. They were under no obligation to offer any explanation whatsoever. ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 10-27-2008 06:19 PM
It's entirely possible the tests were given by an examiner who was in on it.IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 10-28-2008 06:04 AM
Barry, It doesn't matter how they passed the polygrah test.What matters is that ATF SAID that they taught their agents how to pass the test. This is a clear statement from them that they taught their agents how to apply countermeasures, thus legitimizing george and gino and doug and all the other idiots who have been working to destroy polygraph. Our own government just gave these guys a whole box of hand grenades to throw whenever and wherever they want. That is both STUPID and Irresponsible. I see it as their inability to curb their desire to appear elitest and special, which is laughable coming from the agency that brought us WACO. All they had to say was that they were not going to discuss how the agents passed the test, but no, they had to announce that they could "beat the box" I am PO'd ------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 10-28-2008 10:51 AM
I realize that, but they probably care more about peoples' lives than GM and a book that doesn't work. It doesn't help us (when dealing with the truthful), no, but I wouldn't get too hung up on it. For them, it could be a way of saying "Don't test our agents (when we don't have our insider doing the test) because we'll beat you and it's a waste of your time.I'd rather deal with it on our end than have a dead agent. IP: Logged |
detector
Administrator
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posted 10-28-2008 01:05 PM
I don't know Barry, I have to side with Ebvan on this one. Point is, people talk about failing or passing all the time without explanations why and how. That would have solved both sides of the problem in this case. I agree they should have kept their mouth shut and stuck to the facts, there does seem to be a little strutting going on. Scare tactics only work until someone challenges them, and then an agent may end up dead because of that over-confidence.We don't have all the facts, but the negatives of that announcement outway the positives. Mainly in perception. This is one more brick in the building of undermining basic trust, even for the innocent, making each test that much more difficult. ------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator Be sure to visit our new store for all things Polygraph Related
http://store.polygraphplace.com IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 10-28-2008 01:40 PM
You're thinking of this from a polygraph examiner perspective. They may be thinking from a "don't even consider testing our agents because it's a waste of time" perspective. That is, it could be one big bluff on the part of ATF to save lives by convincing organized crime not to test. That's more important than our feelings.IP: Logged |
detector
Administrator
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posted 10-28-2008 02:04 PM
Its not about my feelings. You actually made my point. A bluff only works until someone calls it. The sheer fact that they got busted should have instilled the fear in others wanting to use polygraph. They didn't have to say that they were trained to beat it, they could have just said, we won regardless. The natural response to that of other gangs would be to question polygraph on their own.My real point is they are only thinking of their perspective. I believe I'm considering both. ------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator Be sure to visit our new store for all things Polygraph Related
http://store.polygraphplace.com IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 10-28-2008 02:47 PM
They may still be trying to protect an examiner - whether it's a private guy they chose or otherwise. I suspect there's more to this than we know, and arrogance is just to simple an explanation.IP: Logged |
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